johnson4

Wonder why it’s so much. My bad. it is a good machine, I have 5 of them and have never encountered the issue. I’ve ran it out of film and it kept printing- so nothing was in there at one point so I am not sure. Just disable all the skew/paper detection and use rolls. Maybe add a tiny white sticker under the film where the edge of the film is.

Each small line that makes up each large slanted line represents one nozzle. Example- Magenta, top center- one nozzle missing. 2nd row in the right, one nozzle missing. Cyan 2nd row has two nozzles missing. Cyan top row has 4 nozzles missing. this is a nozzle clog, or a dead nozzle. it would appear as super tiny lines in the print at this point in those colors. If you are using a higher resolution like 1440x1440 it’s less obvious, but it’s there. Those magenta nozzles halfway down that look fuzzy or slightly out of place is called deflection. It’s a firing nozzle that is partially clogged, causing the ink to not fire in a straight line. Kinda like putting your finger over a water hose.

For 1900 Euros you can get a machine that is twice as fast and works 10X better. The Epson 5000.

Here is a little bit of a cost breakdown: P5000- $1895 Printhead- $1,000 Dampers- $80 Damper Assy- $150 Capping station- $150 21 12" X 12" an hour. Chinese 2 head machine: $10,000+ Printheads ( it takes two 4 channel heads) $3,000 Dampers- $20 Capping station pumps/ cap top- $80 30 10" X 10" an hour. Aside from obvious size and print quality differences as well as alignments and other issues- Basically the ease of use and printing day to day. You do the math and figure out what works for you. You know what choices I have made. I will follow up with this as things progress, I am also waiting on my P6000, which is the 8 color 24" version of the P5000 in terms of speed. I project it will do 40 11" X 11" an hour. I also have a bypass for ink chips and resetters situation. So for $800 more than the P5000 you can get the same thing minus 2 extra ink channels but in 24" form. The P7000 is after the P6000, which is the 24" version of the P5000 with the 10 color head. But that is too far away to get into yet.

This post is a follow up from a previous thread. It will contain information on the P5000 conversion and any issues I ran across in the 6+ timeframe that I have used it with tips and tricks to avoid that. While what I say here specifically applies to the P5000, in general it can be applied to any Epson conversion. Of course just about any Epson "conversion" will work out of the box, specifically this one. But over time, the white ink takes a toll in the machine and causes issues if not properly addressed. Most chalk it up to the machine being " garbage" when in fact is it a lesson on what to do differently to maintain the machine. I am not here to judge you or help with walk you through it every miniscule step. I would absolutely love to help if you need it, but please do your due diligence. I am also not here to press my opinions or preferences on you or give you recommend a specific product or seller. Everything is from hands on experience first hand by me. If you agree with it or not- or if you put the time into reading what I say or doing your own testing- that is up to you entirely. Everything Is based on my honest unbiased opinion with hands on experience since I started in 2016 with modified printers. While I am no expert (really, who can say they are anyway?) I do have specific experience under my belt with issues and solutions. I am always under a time constraint and may very easily overlook something, please let me know if I did or something I say is not specific enough. I am also not the " best" at writing and photographing everything together. If you would like to see an image of something and it is not included, just ask. Now that is out of the way, let's get to it! For the P5000, It's a great machine. Right out of the box you can basically load ink with aftermarket cartridges and be on your way. Literally. No removing rollers, No waste tank modifications. Literally, Out of the box ready to roll. I did make some minor easy to do modifications along the way to make life easier though. Something like installing LED lights into the cabinet to see nozzle checks and such easier, as well as creating a spot for me to manipulate the capping station to clean the wiper assembly. Some technical things to note: 1. It uses 220 ML ink cartridges. 2. It has 360 nozzles per channel, with 10 ink channels ( 11 cartridges). 3. Built in film cutter, perfect for using rolls to lower cost and increase speed for sheet printing. 4. Built in roll holder that directly fits up to 17" X 325 ( 100M) film rolls with 3" core diameter. 5. It prints up to 21 12" X 12" prints an hour on 13"/33CM film at it's fastest setting CMYK+W 6. It prints up to 42 12" X 12" prints an hour on 13"/33CM film at it's fastest setting WHITE ONLY ( or black only with no white under base) 7. It has a printhead that WILL NOT suffer from ink spills easily, like the XP-15000. The head cables are connected at the top in a vertical position. I have intentionally shorted the connections with liquid and the printer errored out. Cleaned the cables and powered it back on and it worked flawlessly. 8. With 2-4 extra channels you can use up 2-4 spot colors AND CMYK+W right out of the box. OR this will work as two additional ink channels if you ever experience irreparable clogging on one channel. 9. It has a built in fan for suction on the film, so NO MORE head strikes- EVER. It also has a built in Mainboard cooling fan, so it can print constantly- an entire roll of film without stopping without an issue in 15.5 hours CMYK+W or 7.8 hours White/black only. This was a major issue with other conversions. Yeah, I know. It's a beast of a machine- especially for only $1895 delivered. Now some downfalls: 1. You must use a chip resetter on the waste tank. You must swap them/have two waste tanks for this machine to reset them. 2. It DOES NOT have chipless firmware or ARC chips. It does however have a manual chip resetter which works perfectly and reliably. 3. It WAS NOT designed for use with WHITE ink( like any conversion). Regardless, There are still things you must do daily and monthly to maintain the machine. Easily avoidable issues with knowledge and experience. Yep- not a whole lot of downfalls with this machine. Not really any of them that matters. Now for my experience from day one to 6+ months of use: This machine will work great for the first few months, Shockingly actually. Most days you only do one head clean to get going and that is it for the rest of the day. You will notice you never, or very rarely experience nozzle clogging. Now, This all is with the expectation that it WILL NOT be sitting days at a time and printing at least 20 12" X 12" prints a day. Anything less than that or skipping days will alter the outcome below drastically with shortened timeframes. From month 1-3- I had 0 issues at all. None. It printed over 4,875 12" X 12" transfers without a single thing- except daily maintenance and refilling the ink cartridges with ink/resetting the chips. So far, That is a $9,750 return plus time and electric on a $1,895 printer in 3 months. From month 3-6- This is when the issues started creeping up. The white ink in the stock OEM system started taking it's toll. I tested various solutions and found a few ways to bypass this. Situation 1: The white ink can be manually flushed from the ink system. I fill a cartridge with warm distilled water, disconnected the damper hose at the splitter and pushed air into the vent hole of the cartridge with a syringe which in turn pushed the water through the ink bay. I eventually used a small air pump to save time. It look about 400 ML to flush the ink system entirely PER CHANNEL of white. You will NEVER remove the white ink remnants entirely without replacing all of the components. Once this was completed I reinstalled the hose and then replaced the dampers with OEM dampers. The aftermarket dampers DO NOT work well and will cause issues. Seriously, don't risk saving $40 on dampers to kill your investment. The original dampers were filled with white ink "sludge" to the point it was going into the printhead and causing the damper to "stick" closed. IF YOU DO NOT CATCH THIS EARLY- IT WILL DESTROY THE PRINTHEAD ALMOST IMMEDIATELY. After replacing the dampers I filled NEW ink cartridges with white ink and ran an ink charge TWICE on those channels to get the white ink back to the head. Worked flawlessly as fixing the issue. The DAMPERS on the printhead MUST be replaced in time or this does not work. WHEN you start experiencing white ink channels dropping out entirely- STOP and replace your dampers. Have some on hand. You can also replace the entire damper assembly, They are about $150 delivered. So for situation one it cost me about $200 to replace the damper assembly and the 4 white ink cartridges plus the ink/cleaner usaage flushing the machine. Not to bad after $19,500 worth of transfers printed on a $1,895 initial investment. Situation 2: We are still on the 3-6 month mark here. I run multiple machines and took multiple routes to see what did and did not work based on variables to learn how it all comes together. Let's say you DID NOT stop to replace the dampers and flush the ink system when you started experiencing white drop out or excessive clogging. This is where it got interesting. I was able to get about another 2 weeks use out of the printer before printhead failure. What I mean by this is when you use the P5000, And everyday one head clean works perfect for months without an issue- When the day comes that it DOES NOT work with one head clean all day, or the white ink drops out at any point- 2 weeks from this point it died permanently. Why though, you ask? Well it's simple actually. The ink system is pressurized after the cartridges. There are small valves inside the machine the pump up pressure- around 3-5 PSI to the printhead with ink. What this does is allows the printhead to work with ONLY sucking ink from the pressurized damper. So, basically the printhead simply uses the ink in the damper that is at a neutral pressure ( no suction, no pressure). When the ink in the damper is used, it squeezes a valve as the space gets smaller and then fresh ink comes rushing in from the ink lines. The moment right before there is positive pressure, that valve closes preventing any positive or negative pressure. Cool huh? This makes little work for the printhead to get the ink it needs and gives it a ready supply of ink all around. The reason the white is having issues is because everyday the white ink pigment falls out of the carrier as it sits- inside the printer. All this sludge gets pushed into the damper eventually as it builds up. There is a small ink hole in the damper about 1/4 inch above the bottom. At the 3-6 month mark this damper has 1/4 inch of sludge in the bottom( where all white ink pigment, or "sludge" ends up). That's right, you guessed it. The printhead is actually started to suck sludge in instead of ink- which is MUCH thicker. The normal ink is thin which flows easily and cools the printhead nozzles. This thick ink is like sucking a milkshake through a coffee stirrer for the printhead- It nozzles get tired quick- and permanently. The reason you flush the ink system is so the NEW dampers DO NOT get quickly filled with this " sludge". I tested this too though. After 7 days BRAND NEW dampers were filled up to this 1/4" mark on the damper without flushing the ink system before replacing them. So, This is why you flush the ink system and why it is VERY important. Plus, who wants to waste $80 in dampers every week? Since the ink system CANNOT be fully flushed ( even when clear water is coming out there is white ink remnants in there) the dampers and ink assembly now should be replaced every 3 months. Do this like clockwork and you'll be fine. Don't do this like clockwork, Prepare to buy a new machine the moment you don't. Situation 3: Again, still on the 3-6 month mark here. Let's say you decide to take an alternative route and bypass the OEM ink system entirely when you run into these issues instead of doing the above two options for whatever reason. It's rather easily done actually. When testing, I ONLY did this to the white ink. I left the CMYK ink as stock. Basically, I made an adapter and left the ink cartridges in the printer ( for the chips) and disabled the pressure pump on my white ink side. I then removed the hose and attached my adapter into the ink splitter. I then purchased a 2 liter ink tank and some hose/clamp and attached this to my adapter. Basically what I have done here is left the CMYK ink STOCK on the left side where my 2 extra channels are. So here I can just fill like normal with my stock pressurized ink cartridges since CMYK doesn't have an issue with this ink system. I disabled the right side and hooked up a bulk ink white tank. I did this because who wants to run a 5 color ink system and waste that space when not necessary? I don't. I didn't. To paint a picture, I have one ink tank attached ABOVE the printer on top of the printer. One hose runs down into the printer and connects to my adapter feeding the printer WHITE ink to all the channels. The adapter converts the 6 channel hose into one channel and feeds the printhead in stock form. All I am doing here is bypassing the right side ink bay. I then installed a 2 PSI pressure pump on the ink tank. That's right, So it's ABOVE the printer AND has a 2 PSI positive pressure. This results on 3-5 PSI at the printhead, very much like stock. Everyday I come out and shake my white ink tank ( I opted to use one without the white ink mixer, it's a waste of time to me, they don't work well at mixing the ink). Turn on the pressure pump and release my hose clamp to allow flow to the printer. I also installed a Y splitter at my adapter with a return hose. It has a valve on it to turn on/off. All I have to do is turn on the valve every morning and the PRESSURE from the ink tank pushes all the settled white ink out of that hose for re-mixing and reusing cycling fresh ink from the tank to my adapter. Simple, no ink pumps, no crap to break. Takes 10 seconds to do manually and you don't have to worry about it. It's a basic foolproof white ink recirculating system- just use air pressurized from the tank instead of a separate pump and filter. One could easily install an in-line filter, but, I don't like the size of them and it's just too much settled ink in there just sitting to go bad. For me and the hundreds of dampers I have disected, White ink very rarely has ANY debris in it, especially for a white ink filter. The dampers have small filters and when the sludge is in the bottom and they need replaced, the filters are still clean on OEM dampers. In my experience, OEM dampers filter out MORE than aftermarket as well. That's it, Now I don't have to flush the OEM ink assembly or replace my white ink cartridges ever again. Yes, I could have went full aftermarket ink system but find it to be a bad idea. I know EPSON quality and aftermarket dampers quality varies. Epson dampers are " the bees knees" or "Cadillac" of parts. I have tested and tested and find this always true. Plus, the CMYK usage is very low, I only fill those cartridge's maybe 3 times a month, compared to the white cartridges twice a week. I find this great for my use, for my setup. I will still need to replace my dampers at an unknown interval, I am going with 4 months to play it safe, or until there are signs they need changed. So it's about $80 every 3-4 months to replace only the dampers, or to keep it simple and a 5 minute job, the entire damper assembly is about $150 delivered. I have a spare one so I can swap in a new damper assembly, Refurbished the old one with new dampers and clean it for the next swap. That's it. So about $80 every $20,000 in profit for this machine so far. I feel like the capping station will need changed yearly, which is about $150. Beyond that, the printheads in these are beasts in comparison, never clog, never anything but perfect UNLESS you neglect the printer. This is where I am at with it at the 6+ month mark.

I have heard about it but never used it. A 90 nozzle printer can only do so much. I had three of these printers. They are very slow and clog just as easy as the xp-15000. So I don’t see the gain. Maybe around 6 12” x 12” prints an hour from them. Bump that up to 8 if you really don’t care about the quality. of course they work well when they work, just not going to be what you hope for in my opinion. I took a sledgehammer to one of mine just to relieve frustrations after some time. it’s all a learning lesson and what works for each of us will be different. Get ya one and try it out and see how it goes. Either way you come away with knowledge which can be priceless. good luck!

Unfortunately I have been busy and haven't had much time to look for them. Lesson learned on keeping better track and names on the files. A caliper and maybe an hour and it can be recreated. Another user posted a better solution to these, using the OEM carts and the damper attached to the cartridge yielded better results.

The l1800 is half as fast. It has 90 nozzles and 6 channels. The xp-15000 has 180 nozzles and 6 channels. So whatever the speed produced on the xp-15000 at 1440x720, the L1800 will do half as fast on the same settings. So a good example is the L1800 at 1440X720 will be the same print speed as the Xp-15000 at 1440x1440. Its the exact same thing as the Epson 1430 in terms of speed. If I had to choose between the two and thats it, I would go with the L1800, because to me the ET isn't an option at all to begin with. It's just asking to toss the money out of the window with this machine in my eyes. To me, I would stick it out and learn from the mistakes of the xp-15000, It's a good machine when setup and ran correctly. Worst case, even if you replaced it every 3 months for $350, It's potential profit for 8 hours a day printing at 5 days a week is $1700 per week or $7,000 a month if it was ran the entire 8 hours a day 5 days a week( not cleanings, etc). that's a potential of $19,000 in profit a month on one XP-15000 which was run 7 hours a day, 5 days a week for 3 months. $350 would be a drop in the bucket then, especially compared to expensive printheads in the Chinese machines, or the high cost of other compatible Epson printers. Good ink, good ink system setup, good maintenance and your golden.

Personally neither, the 8550 is a waste of time and money and the L1800 is twice as slow as the 15000. Taking 15 minutes for a “fast” print really isn’t ideal, that would normally take 7 minutes on the 15000. there is a guy around here selling decent kits for the 15000, or buy a better converted printer. these problems follow every printer using white ink, even the $25,000 ones. You can’t really buy your way out of it and it catches up to everyone eventually. Experience and proper maintenance is the only real answer to it. good luck!

It’s there somewhere in the post. it’s kind of outdated now but still worked well. I am currently working on ( in my free time) a more proper/commercial style shaker. I am aiming to keep it at or under $1,000 total and making it modular in 13”, or 17”, or 24” configurations with various pre-heater options and things like film suction, cut sheet options, built in automatic extraction fan, options of standard dump/fill powder box or automatic recycling powder box( not with air). Just various things that I have encountered over the last 2 years that would be good for various setups. User upgradable as they grow. I am also only using readily available components so there isn’t any hard to find crap or replacement part issues. No proprietary stuff other than the sheet metal which I will include the DXF files for. i know I can’t spend $3,500-$6,000 on a fancy shaker, so I am going to replicate the outcome with a basic kit+ upgraded options to keep pricing more flexible and so it can be grown into. I'm pretty far into it, but still have a bit to go before it’s finalized. So far it’s a 120V unit with about a 1200W power requirement with the preheater. I am documenting it properly this time so I can share the build instructions/ part list. The kit could also be purchased outright at a 30% markup with support when finished, or about $1,300. it’s not difficult to build one from scratch that works well. It is time consuming to build one that is designed well without flaws left in the final product or overlooking real world use. So I have to test each variation. Eventually I’ll get there, haha.

Interesting, that would be my number one problem with my white ink, which seems to vary barch to batch on how bad it gets.

Have you tried a larger pre-heater? Might be easier when selling to consumers if they can turn up the pre-heater. I had to add one to mine that was missing one. I don't really get clogs from the Chinese inks, maybe once every 100 foot or so I'll have to do a head clean, it's not often. Used to it happened quite a bit, a year or so ago. I have yet to try the Kodak, but I will soon. The main issue is when the white ink is in the ink system the white pigment drops out and gums on the ink system/ dampers which causes issues if not properly maintained. If someone could find a suspension that could hold the white ink and prevent this from happening like the CMYK ink, that would be the bees knees. From the sounds of it though yours still does this. The issue pops up after 5 micron filters and the ink separates and goes into the head as " sludge". That's what gets my printers anyway and usually takes them out.

Same here, it’s almost daily some random crud going on. Time consuming, but gotta do it to pay the bills. I wish you continued success!

Nice simple resolution, haha. I’ve seen some crazy cause and effects for stuff like this.

To put it into perspective here is a photo: The bottom black plungers ( one missing) is what creates the ink pressure. the white ink makes this valve “ stick”. The way it works is the “ air pump” actually sucks air pulling that flap “ open” and then a spring closes it when that pressure is removed. It sucks the ink from the center when it is pulled back with suction, and with the spring it pushes it in pushing the ink into the ink lines with pressure. the top, where you see the circles of ink is the reservoir, it also has a sprinted plunger to press in that. That is likely to prevent damage and to allow a larger margin of pressurized ink. the problem is the white ink gums up the valve, and then the sludge in the lines make it require more pressure than the spring can provide to effectively pressurize the line. if you made the spring that closes it stronger, and the pump that pulls the vacuum stronger, it would likely fix the issue entirely. the key to maintaining this is to keep it clean before it gums up. Before the ink flow is reduced. Once you see issues with this, it immediately can damage your printhead. you can also bypass all this crap and run your own ink line to the head, leaving empty carts in place. Measure and maintain a consistent pressure instead of gravity fed and your golden. so the issue is a combination of things, which start with white ink, this ink assembly, the ink in the lines, which fill up the damper with sludge. After that, through all that, the head is what takes the beating and must bear all the shortcomings until it is also done.

It can be a variety of things. as the white ink in the lines ages, it deposits “sludge”. I call it sludge, but in reality it’s just the pigment dropping out. The thinner stuff moves along, while the heavier stuff slowly builds up over time. If the printer is constantly used, it will experience this less often. The more it sits, the quicker it occurs. this happens all throughout the ink system. The cartridges, the cartridge manifold, the ink lines, then the damper assembly. once this happens, generally the 2-3 month mark with low/moderate use, the damper will have “ sludge” building up inside the damper. this sludge is thick, so in the ink system it creates a “ suction” because it’s slowly getting narrower for the ink flow throughout the tubing for the “ free” ink flow of mixed ink. Aside from it getting “ narrower” the sludge itself starts thickening. think drinking tea from a straw. Now try drinking maple syrup from a straw. Like that- over time. while that’s happening, also consider the damper is a small circular reservoir of ink with a small hole in the BOTTOM for ink to flow into the head- also sucking from this ink line that is slowly turning to “ maple syrup”. the damper will ultimately fill with “sludge” which is sticky and creates a resistance in the ink flow further. The damper actuates, so the ink sludge will hinder that to some degree, as well as take up space that would normally be used for ink. now this hole the ink flows through in the damper is at the bottom, after 2-3 months this sludge buildup reaches this hole. so ultimately you end up sucking sludge ( not clogs) into the head. This will eventually surpass the ink systems pressure ability to push ink into the damper, and make the printhead work harder to “ suck” ink from the damper. this is where the permanent damage occurs. It strains the printhead and causes permanent damage or weakens the piezo nozzles. The ink also cools these nozzles as it flows, the sludge doesn’t cool them very well. this printer has multiple cleaning options. Some simply use the capping station to suck ink, some cleaning methods actually fire all the nozzles AND use the capping station. This is the next big killer. When the “sludge” is causing the problem and we use the method that fires the nozzles, it further damaged things. The end game here is to maintain the ink system BEFORE a problem occurs. Once it happens and you are fighting dropping channels or channels that work then immediately clog, it is likely too late. I tested aftermarket dampers and they DO NOT work and make the problem worse. Only oem Epson dampers seem to work well. if you replace the dampers in time without flushing the ink system, you will NOT get 2-3 months again. The sludge already in the ink system makes its way to the new dampers creating the same issue within days. ultimately as I expected back in the day this is the machines weak point. It’s entirely possible to pressurize the ink system/carts with an outside air pump. It’s also possible to remove/bypass the oem ink system entirely. I have one dead machine that printed for about 6 months before suffering this fate. I am testing various methods to find the best way to bypass this. Test 1. I am adding an external pump with variable pressure from 0.5 PSI to 4 PSI. Test 1b. Replace the OEM pressure pump with an adjustable one to slightly increase pressure. Test 2. I will remove the oem ink system up until the damper splitter, cut the hoses and add splitters to connect my own line to use the original damper assy/hose with my own pressurized ink system with a WIMS. Test 3. Remove the oem system entirely and run entirely aftermarket pressurized ink system with a WIMS. The “sludge” needs to be prevented by design or maintained manually. Beyond that to help alleviate head failure pressurizing the ink system will also remove strain on the printhead. the OEM ink system is not designed for this use, so ultimately it is the problem. Not just the damper, cartridge, or any of the like. All dampers I used were all functional and not clogged at all. It’s the sludge sitting in the ink reservoir in the damper and within the entire ink system. I’ve dealt with this for years with conversions. Each printer is a bit different, but ultimately one must die for me to see where it fails to fix it for each model I use. fortunately this model has 10 channels so usually you can just load up new carts and use the 2 extra channels and put cleaner in the old channels to buy you time. don’t forget, with poor ink flow you create a suction. This will suck air into the head every clean, which ultimately fills the head with air also creating issues from that side. the ink flow is the lifeblood of the machine, mess with it , the whole thing can die as a side effect.

Feel free to post a link if/when you sell the stuff. I'd like to check it out myself. I am sure others would as well. While I am not currently having issues, I always check out my options

It’s time based more than anything, how well you maintain the ink/printer and how long it doesn’t sit. 500m-5,000m- doesn’t seem to matter. It’s just when the white ink starts to gunk up the ink system. you could also remove it entirely and go with a custom ink system. Me personally I’m testing three routes to see which is more consistent and cost effective. I’ll likely stick to oem and just flush it like I did my p600’s, given it’s similarity in the ink system. I’m also testing pressurizing the carts in the oem format. Pumps are on the way. be careful, this printer is very fragile yet robust. The strong cleanings can kill the head

It’s not just the damper. Its the Whole system needs cleaned, including carts. every 2/3 months for problem free use. Every 4-6 months if you want to risk killing the head.

I don’t think I’ve seen film measured in that way. I haven’t ever measured just the film itself, so I have no idea how thick it is. i also don’t know the benefit or downfall of the thickness of film or ever noticed a difference. if you have a shaker with powder sitting in the U of the film pulling it down, I don’t see why it would have any issues with thin or thick film. Generally the pulling motion and weight of the powder mixed with the vacuum holds the stuff flat regardless. but I must reiterate, I have no idea personally.

Sounds look too much CMYK ink. The drop size is the Picolitre size of the ink drop. Light is usually for photo's, or small. Medium/large is the standard I use and most use. Try lowering your CMYK values and pickup one of those cheap profilers for a couple hundred bucks. You can also send out and pay $100 for a custom profile from some of the guys as well.

Apples to oranges. They build them using other companies parts and use Epson printheads generally. they generally use an i3200 printhead or an xp600. Both heads came from a cheap sub $200 home inkjet printer initially. Of course now many are direct from manufacturers, at a tune of $1,200 each and $600 each respectively. head replacement in the knight would be over $1200 each time- which is said to need done every 6-2 months. it’s a whole nother world with its own issues and learning curves with things your Epson will never experience. You’ll have to buy one to really understand. If you do, the support system is worth it from a supplier rather than direct. like I said OEMs will be coming out with their own DTF printers relatively soon.

They are all about the same speed. The p800 being the fastest though minuscule. The p600 has a weak and prone to failure ink system. The p400 is great for low volume use while the P800 is ideal for roll printing and larger volume printing with a strong ink system.

I think I went a little off topic here. My main point is I hope that the price stays competitive. Because some of us run a fine line. While we dealt with poor quality imports in the beginning, It's now rather consistent.

I personally haven't noticed this from DTFsuperstore inks. I am however switching to kodak inks in off-season if they work well, they are made in the US and closer to me. I order my film from china, out of the last 300 rolls I haven't seen any issues or discrepancies. There were a ton of issues in the beginning, enough to really put a bind on me, but since then it's been very good. I lost maybe 15 rolls which they replaced which was cool. Dupont DTF inks sounds exciting, that is mainly what I used for DTG. If they take forever getting it to market and Kodak works well I likely won't use it though unfortunately. Something I would like to see is a good quality TPU at a decent price in the US. I haven't seen that yet. Since I started back when Andy decided to start DTFSuperstore It has been a hell of alot of changes and learning curves. Since then though people are starving and starting to sell stuff below profitable regions, likely without knowing it. For us with federal and state taxes, overhead, all that jazz mixed with people working their way down ( in mass) to selling the stuff for $1-$2 a foot, It's getting to that point of not worth it even with the cheap prices of materials. I am not certain paying more for premium materials is in the scope of most peoples eyes, so hopefully it is all " well priced". I have done the math over and over again using a 24" 4 head machine as an example with an estimated yearly repair cost of $5000 (assuming once a year you'll need to replace the printheads) and a base maintenance cost of around $500 yearly. Add in the initial startup cost, purchased from a USA dealer or overseas directly. Mix that in with bulk supply costs of less than $60 per roll of 24" film, bulk ink and powder prices all from china ( The lowest prices around) it still makes it very difficult to turn a solid profit at those prices, especially for Epson based machines. People like quality, but people like speed and low cost more, especially on the end user bulk finished transfer customers. I hold my business to a minimum of 35 percent profit after all costs including electric, tax, all of the aforementioned and any other costs I incur. The only thing this excludes is the 50+ hour work week of labor for us. That means 35 percent of what we make is our paycheck for the time it takes to produce and deliver the finished product. If you increase ink costs and film costs by a modest margin, well, That will eat up my profit unless I charge more. While possible if it holds quality to a much higher standard, I doubt it will be that much of a difference. What I produce now with these supplies that have been rather consistent, I do not have any issue with receiving compliments of them being better than any other supplier they have used on an almost daily basis. To date with the Chinese supplies I use I haven't had any issues almost all year, if those issues cost more than using a higher quality product, I would switch including my time. I see that to be very hard to compete with unless some type of conflict were to occur, then if people had no choice of course the USA stuff would sell like hot cakes. If they came in with a introductory price or some other " difference" that made them appealing, maybe. I'm not saying it's not great and wouldn't be a great alternative, I am just saying that I believe the Chinese market has now evened out and weeded out the good/bad stuff. Competing with those prices for product that works, well it's going to be hard. Mix that in with starving businesses who went in debt $5,000-$50,000 to start this type of work, They'll do anything to get their foot in the door. Multiply that by the amount of people doing so- It puts a strain on the rest of the industry that holds themselves to higher standards and using higher quality materials. Beyond that, you will also have OEM's pickup on the trend and start selling their own equipment and machines locked to their supplies, further reducing the need for aftermarket products. These devices need to be brought in at a reasonable price to compare to the alredy relatively low Chinese prices in order to compete, or at least make it worthwhile. Who knows, we'll see.